Money in anarchy?

You don't understand. No one works for free. The service provided to the people is free. But those employed in that field do get paid. I'm saying that education and healthcare should not be privatized. Government pays doctors and teachers so you don't have to.

Thing is people don't have to adjust to a new society. You don't need to deconstruct it and rebuild it and hope people accept it. It's not possible nor practical. People who are poor would LOVE my reforms. Because I'm advocating that: EVERYONE gets a job that pays them a living wage, they can be anything and anywhere they want with free education, AND they get to spend moneeeey! Poor people love that shit! But you're right it might be too good to be true for some

Just so you know, you're taking a risk to your reputation on the forum by agreeing with me

 

i wont argue over this. fact is, we will know whats right when the time comes. until then we still have much work to do. when all is done the people will know whats best, we can speculate all we want but as long as we havent expierenced it, we cant say how the majority of people will react to that decision. maybe they want something entirely different than our ideas, but still abolishing power and capitalism.

 

@sludge : Ok, but from your theory - everyone would get paid based on how much have they worked. That's again not equal nor justice, and it will create classes, right ?

 

No. Everyone gets paid based on: how much they work, the cost of training, skill level/danger, demand, etc. How could that POSSIBLY be unequal or unjust?

 

100% chance, that'll absolutely be unjust.
Money creates classes, the ones who decide who much someone will get paid have more power than others and therefore they will earn more than others, people will be just as close-minded as they are now because all they'll care about is their own wallet,

it won't change a fucking thing.

 

Look, sorry for saying this but please read what you wrote. Money will create classes if everyone doesn't get same amount. Someone will be "rich", and he could afford himself something that lets say poor guys can't. I know there won't be poor-rich, but from what you are saying there will be.

 

@ milan. Maybe you should read the discussion before you open your noise hole. The only thing that's closed minded is you.

 

That's fucking stupid as shit. Once again, for the 8 millionth fucking time money does not create class, people create class. People will ALWAYS try to find a line to divide themselves. Secondly, not you nor any of the other detractors even know the meaning of the word "class". Class isn't defined by differences, it's defined by a hierarchy. This is fucking simple shit that I shouldn't have to explain to you people. You have STILL yet to show me one fucking example of how someone in an anarcho society would exert dominance over someone using money. It's easy to spout this rhetoric but show me a REAL argument. So fucking WHAT if some guy can afford something a poor guy can't. What's seriously the worst fucking outcome of that? The poor guy's feelings will get hurt? You think there's going to be civil unrest because richy rich can afford the T-8000 model computer and johnny hobo can only afford the T-1000 because he doesn't have enough work ethic to progress in a society that will educate him for free and guarantee his employment ? Stupidity of the highest caliber. There's no argument here. There's only logic and the refusal to accept it.

You wanna talk about injustice? What's fucking UNJUST is being forced to live under the same conditions as someone who wants to go through life by doing the absolute bare minimum while YOU have the desire, ability, and work ethic to succeed however far you want. That's fucking fascism. No other way about it.

 

Then I don't see the problem with bartering. We will produce how much we work. And we will be able to trade. Money is bad today, and it's hard to convince people that it will be good tomorrow

 

So it's the little ass kid doing it's wild show again?
Oh sludgy dumbfuck, please enlighten me:
What is more disgusting, your appalling lack of education and knowledge, or your repulsive degenerated personality? Are you high on urine again? What about your plan to terrorize enemy no.1:
The population? Brainwashed masses, blinded by consumerism (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5684):

Your words dumbfuck - did you ever realize yourself what comes out of your degenerated middleclass noisy hole?
Better brainwashed than braindead - eh, dumbfuck zombie, asocial bugbear? Somewhere some "logic" got lost?
No, just the noise from a misanthropic yapping idiot.

Interesting theme, fascism, is it that why you sound like sludgy dumbfuck mussolini? Never heard of him? Education is a darn thing, and obviously not yours, pompous ass.

Money was used by those who had it long before the antique roman republics coined the word "clientele politics" to keep the power structures the way they were - who has the money got the power too.
But I guess lobbyism, clientele politics and vote rigging, the living conditions in the former eastern bloc after the war or the conditions in china and kuba today are too far outside your lonely dark hole too... eh, dumbfuck, what a poor pathetic idiot you are.
History and real life experience made almost all anarchist writers promoting the abolishing of money after the revolution, especially the anarcho-communists. For those able to read and understand what going on outside their head:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_economics - sorry dumbfuck, but I won't be surprised if it's again too much for your "level"...

Surely there are 6,8 billion realities based upon whats happening - but no wonder your're far from that too, because:

Too bad that the bl(e)a(c)kness of your view is combined with that noisy middleclass pipsqueak misery - but I guess thats already a bit too much for your high level ignorance and mental disability. No use to mention real life failures like the "reformist" "real existing socialism" in history, too much for dumbfuck again.
So let's try another picture:

So your "anarchist" society preserves what? A government? Huh! Waste of time to explain the sheer basics to a cracker dumbfuck peabrain all about "logic" - so for all the others who know what anarchy means but are unsure about "class":

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class)
Science, eh dumbfuck?
Too bad again that you doesn't qualify for the elite, thats what all the wild show is about, big noisy bleakness, a poor lonely idiot screaming for attention... Your "reputation" sludgy dumbfuck:
Too disgusting to be at least the laughing stock...
Stop ranting, jabbering and spamming this forum which is "blinded by ideology" with your retarded bullshit, fucking troll!
Just fuck off and play with excrements like your "freethinking " idols - I guess thats the only thing you're good at... freak show idiot!

 

No, he's calling for money to be abolished and be replaced by a Communal Storage and criticizes the replacement of money by Labor Notes, based on "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" which you CLEARLY know nothing about. Yes money is the source of the problem, not people, it is the means that amasses power and greed as I explained in the previous post which you did not even care to read and rather reply to a certain part that appeals to you. When there is something hordeable and stackable such as currency, people will strive to obtain it no matter the costs. Abolish Private Property and money's power will be eliminated? LOL, you clearly know nothing. It is very easy to corrupt and bribe individuals who are in need, people would be ready to do ANYTHING for more of that lovely currency which they can buy whatever thety need including the bare minimum which is not free, take the strike breakers during the mine wars, they fought and ruined fellow miners for some work and money. One day someone with piles of money will come forth and proclaim himself "leader"; recruiting those in need to fulfill some "tasks" for him giving him privilege, power and rule over that society. You cannot in no way deny that someone will be able, and will, do so when he sees the opportunity for expansion.

Please explain the outline of your unworkable system, I'd be glad to hear it in full.

I explained how a person who owns more money will exert dominance over the rest, you have either absolutely ignored what I said or you need some reading lessons. I will not repeat myeslf and bother writing what has already been said so I advise you to read my previous post. Private property can always be reinstated given the circumstances and the increasing availability of surplus and need. Let's take the example of a person who owns 1,000,000$ and a person who owns 1000$ (for example) the former being a doctor, a desk worker, a manager, and the latter being a mine worker, a farmer, or a shop worker. The rich person has what is essential in that society: money while the other lacks it and is ready to do anything for it given that he cannot always have work assured for him and his family so he needs what the other person has and will do anything to obtain some of it. That is the basics of a coming Capitalist society, no matter how you twist and turn it, with the availability of money even if private property is abolished the system will revert to Capitalism/Feudalism/Laissez-Faire and the like. To think otherwise is completely Utopian.

Money is not the cause of theft, that is apparent; the lack of is the cause of theft. The lack of money is poverty. "Lack of MONEY is not the cause of POVERTY, being unable to provide for oneself is the cause of poverty", oh the contradiction. Since you cannot provide for yourself you become poor, what is it that cannot be provided? Money. If money cannot be provided then you will achieve poverty, but if money is achieved at a very low rate as is obvious since you support higher wages for doctors and lower wages for miners, there will ALWAYS be a NEED and DESIRE to achieve more to acquire more. Now I do not know of the system that of which you speak of, will there be loaners, will there be any of such, will there be a state, will there be a police force, and how will employment be made, etc. etc. After you explain your system in depth it then that I can reply to you for there are many ideologies which support and uphold money in all its forms, Labor Notes being the more "fair" of them all. You cannot speak of securing employment and education, well then if everyone becomes a highly-educated engineer, doctor, technician then there will be a lack of manual workers of the form of butchers, farmers, loggers, miners, and the like. Even if they all become highly-educated doctors then there will always still be the lowly manual workers such as farmers, who else will supply food to all? Obviously it will not be the doctors or engineers who will do such a thing. Now that is settled, there is then the fact that since there will always be those workers of low wage, there will always be social and economical inequality. You have not explained what will happen when inflation occurs, that if the amount of doctors and non-farmers exceed the number of farmers, who and how will that extra needed food be supplied. The price of food and that which is in high demand but in a low supply will sky-rocket, how will then, that petty wage worker who owns little be able to obtain that food? Surely you do not either expect welfare to be started for there is no one who gives a damn for money is the main asset, objective, and goal of the society and every individual you would have the scenario of the Industrial Revolution. Your ideology is based on strawmen and holes with no actual basis to start off of other than being based on money which I can directly relate to Laissez-Faire even if you wish to abolish private property which will be inevitable re-established given the increased amount of social and ecnomical equality, the increasing number of those who "have" and those who "have not" which in this case is capital: money.

You do not believe that the basics, those of the first category (food, water, shelter, clothing) should be free? Oh how fucking lovely, I'd love to see people starving with their low wages and the atrocities that will be seen when people do not have food, you do realize that food could become scarce, that it would be dumped and left to rot if the price is not right? This is turning into Capitalism every minute that I continue reading your post, pathetic. Labor notes are at least more fair than the exploitable "money" you propose, at least you get to WORK for your currency instead of slacking off. Your system will definately turn into Capitalism, I can assure you that for it based on accumulated wealth and money and what other system is more perfect for such things other than Capitalism?

Very short limits? You mean supplying the essentials of food, water, work, etc.: the well-being of all is limiting on people's rights? Just because there won't be people who die of over-consumption and others who die of starvation, it would be limiting the rights of individuals? You are not forced to live in such a matter, yo ucan always leave that society and look for another, revolution will not be a worldwide instance. Yes, in fantasy everything works out just great because all the pieces fall into place, that is exactly what you are doing. You are thinking that people will "fairly" use money, that they will serve a day of work and obtain that money and just live happily ever after. You are very wrong. People will not work as you wish and they will in turn not do as you have thought they would, ergo there will be Capitalism at the end of the road, the pursuit of each his own ends and the limitation of the other. Your ideology is false.

Before you reply I simply request that:
1) You outline your ideology, the basics of it and all.
2) You reply in FULL, do not even exclude anything.
3) That you actually read my post.
4) That you try to refrain from using attacks instead of arguments.

 

Come on, you just ask for too much...

But three cheers for your constructive coolness and the well-structured argumentation!

 

I can understand your feelings on working your ass off while someone sits around and reaps the benefit. I've run into that in literally every job i've ever had. That shit exists now, and money doesn't stop it. I don't see how money will fix things in an anarchist society either. In my vision of an anarchist society, the way to deal with that is to say "You've been warned repeatedly to pull your weight, now pack your shit and get the fuck out. Here's a few days worth of food to get you where you're going. Peace." Simple. If you're able bodied, be an asset to the community or find a new one.

Also, this anarchist "government" you've referred to makes me nervous. What exactly do you mean by government? If you're talking about a person or group of people ( a body of authority) being in charge of everyone then I just can't get behind that. It (along with this monetary system you're proposing and expanding [and ultimately limiting] freedom) is just another
form of capitalism, not anarchism. That's why almost everyone disagrees with you. You can get pissed. You can call everyone every form of "stupid" you can come up with. Nothing you can say (unless it's fucking EPIC) is going to change the definition of "anarchy" and "capitalism".

I'm done with this thread, it gives me a headache. I'm trying to refrain from shitfights. You can reply to this, call me stupid, whatever. But like the rest of this thread, I probably won't bother to read it.

 

You have still not fixed the gigantic fucking holes in your logic. I read everything you wrote, it's just that most of it was irrelevant. And it's YOU who's not replying to parts that are inconvenient to you. The largest holes in your logic (that I've pointed out) are:

WHO are the people in need? Did you not fucking read? Free education and employment. Don't have a lot of money? Go to school for free and get any job you want, guaranteed employment. HOW could there be a poor class? Can you answer that? Is that logic too inconvenient for you? This is fucking meaningless garbage.

If people are educated and enlightened, how will someone with lots of money "proclaim themselves as leader"? RULE OVER SOCIETY? That doesn't even fucking happen in OUR corrupt as shit society. Those who control ALWAYS control behind the scenes. You think someone's gonna stand on a crate and say "I have lots of money, listen to me" and then from there easily manipulate them into making them poor starving peasants while he gets richer? Why would they even fucking listen to him when they already have a job and make a decent living? Maybe YOU'RE that stupid but not me, and neither would people who go through an education system that teaches them history and how to question things and critical independent thought with an emphasis on individuality.

Empty fucking gibberish. How will private property MAGICALLY be reinstated when it's fucking ILLEGAL.

This is actually one of the few relevant points you've made. Even though I already fucking answered it.

So it's obvious you're not reading what I wrote. But I'll explain it to you anyway. You see my good man, first of all, there will ALWAYS be people to do grunt work. ALWAYS. Do you have any fucking idea how many people there are? Not everyone wants to reach for "the top". There's no such thing as "the top". Sure you could make MORE MONEY but many many people would not want to go through the trouble of BECOMING A FUCKING DOCTOR to just make a couple more bucks, which they don't even NEED because their low level job already pays them a comfortable living wage. There are many other pursuits in life besides money.

So what if in your fantasy everyone decides they want to be a doctor anyway? Well that's where "demand" comes in. Too many doctors, not enough patients? Doctors get paid less. Don't need em. Not enough farmers? Now farmers are the ones who are making more than doctors. Need farmers. Those who are driven by money will go wherever it's at. The wages are not set in stone. They fluctuate according to need, but always at standard living. That means there will always be people willing and able to go into every field.

You do not understand the basics of ANY of the ideologies we're discussing. Nevermind that someone already posted an example of an anarcho commune being forced to reinstate money because they realized it's necessary.

And as for vassily77, you're a fucking joke. It's obvious you're butthurt and you're following me around the forum trying to get a rise out of me and make yourself look smart. You're embarrassing yourself. Get out of here troll. I won't even acknowledge anything you wrote because all you can do is sling petty insults. Talk to me when you're an adult.

 

I don't want to read this but, something cought my attention.

"Get out of here troll. I won't even acknowledge anything you wrote because all you can do is sling petty insults. Talk to me when you're an adult."
Now, sludge, you're the one who's been calling us names. And, you're the one who got pissed in the middle of disscusion. I hate that kind of people, you think you're right, and you don't want to hear others. Well, I don't give a fuck about your opinion anymore. Becouse, it's not about money - maybe you're right ( I still think that my idea would work better) it's about us. We can't stop fighting about something that will not happen in 100 years. How will we achive any reforms if we keep fighting ? You guys should learn to disscus peacfully, not so agressive.

 

you're stupid.

 

You wanna know why I'm pissed? PARDON ME if I happen to have a problem with ignorance. I hear what you're saying, and I'm proving you wrong. It's not opinion, you're flat out wrong. A DISCUSSION, would be individuals debating the merits of a system, using counter points and proof. Proof and logic has been posted, but in return all I get it "well, you're STILL wrong. I have absolutely no counter argument, but I'm going to insist your system is false and mine is better". I'm getting fucking pissed because I'm having to repeat myself over and over and over and my detractors are refusing to acknowledge the points I've made. Do you not see how someone who has been proven wrong using logic and evidence yet continues to insist they are right could be infuriating? And I'm not even THAT pissed. This is how I fucking talk. FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK.

I don't give 2 fucks if almost everyone disagrees with me. Because others have also said that money is necessary in anarchy (even posting proof). Most of those who disagree with me don't have half a brain or half an argument, so I don't care if it looks like I'm wrong just because i'm the minority. Those with the ability of rational thought will be able to pick apart what's nonsense and what isn't and that's good enough for me. It's obvious some of those who disagree with me are doing so purely because they don't like me and are desperately looking for a way to make me look stupid. THAT is why I'm fucking pissed. Coincidence I was the only one singled out? I wasn't even the first to state money is necessary. In any case I await a rebuttal consisting of logic and not insistence of fantasy ideologies.

With the exception of random person from here, every other counter argument has been useless.

 

But I did give you arguments, on which you couldn't possible answer becouse I think no one knows the answer. I said that if there's money, there will be salary. Someone will get more then someone else. The rich guy, could exploit the poor guy and pay him the money. And you can't say that he won't do that, becouse as the hisory says - it probbably will happen. When the revolution comes, we're not going to be new people, good people. Some will. Some won't. There will be no private property - but what's money ? Reward, yeah. Why don't we use bartering insteed, to avoid problems with money. You said it would just be too comlicated, but never said why. I tried to tell you how it should work, I mean with some changes but still. I haven't seen you proved that I'm wrong, about bartering. Also, I meantioned human nature, which is, well lets say, twisted.

 

Yes and I answered HOW. I'm still waiting for that answer from ANYONE.

History hasn't said a thing about that because there's never been a system like that. To start there's never been a modern anarchist nation. So I would imagine even less an anarchist nation that employs responsible use of money. Except for the scandanavia, there's never even been a country who has the public's interest at heart and provides for it's citizens the way it should.

Why don't we use bartering? Because it's already been proven it's incredibly inefficient, even in extremely small communes made up of like minded individuals intentionally trying to live out their idea of paradise. If it can't work for a small group of people in modern times (the only remote possibility where it could) how's that going to work for millions upon millions of people? How's that going to work for the WORLD? The proof is in people already tried it, and it never works. To explain exactly why it wouldn't work if implemented in modern society I would have to delve deep into economics and structure of a system that doesn't even exist yet. There's no comparison. Furthermore it would require the volume of a book just to be able to cover all the bases and adequately explain it's inefficiency, and I'm not an economist. You'll just have to settle for the explanation that bartering hasn't been practical since thousands of years ago, since life became more complicated than provisions. Bartering only has hope to be efficient in a society where the only products are food water and shelter. If you want to barter so badly, go join a primitivist commune. That's their shit. Get back to me on how much you enjoy it.

Edit: Actually I did explain it to you. The vast variety of goods and services greatly outweigh provisional ability. It's unbalanced. Not everyone needs what you have and you don't have everything you need to get something you want.

 

this is hopeless, forcing your will unto someone else is just another form of fascism. what works for you wont necessarily work for someone else. in anarchy we should let people decide what they want. do it their way. all you really do is forcing other people to bow to your opinion by calling us names. that's fucked up my friend. i have my own ideas, you have your own ideas. so if anarchy should happen, then find a community which thinks like you, end of story. throwing stupid, hateful comments at each other wont help us in any way. that is what you obviously dont understand. so screw this and your ignorant bullshit, this thread is dead to me