Thank you! And I am completely open to other people's opinions and the fact that my own may very well be wrong. I'm sorry if that was a bit too much before (sometimes i get a tad carried away and I realise it might be a tad too serious ) Anyways, I'm off to watch some porn......
I find the word 'feminist' to be very problematic, it can mean such different things to different people. Personaly i'm all for equality between women and men in all possible ways and i try to do my best for a more equal society but still i don't want to join any feminist organisation because all of these that i've had any contact with are less about the equality and more about the disliking of men. Unfortunately the probably most common prejudice about feminists are that all feminists hate men and what is even more unfortunate is that they do exist and they scare others away. More then asking weather or not someone is feminist i think we should discuss what being feminist means, as a common but also on an individual basis. What does it mean to be a woman and a feminist compared to being a man and feminist? It sounds like it should be obvious but as it is today it really is not.
I will put my views across in a more simple manner. Watching two guys screw eachother senseless on film or play (fetish) is fucking hot and I will probably want to have a little bit of time to myself after watching it so I enjoy porn I guess... Secondly in relation to sex-work; If I am approached by a male client who knows that I am willing to fuck/suck/or be fucked for a decent sum of money and there is no other work available that will sustain my existence (food, living expenses...etc) then I will without hesitation take him up on the offer if I feel like it and it will all be on my terms. I built up a list of regulars at one stage and made a decent living off it. As much as I want to smash capitalism and patriarchy I still have to find a way to support myself in the society in which I currently live. Sex-work is an option I will happily partake in it untill I get a position as a Youth/Community Worker.
I completely respect that Queer Punk. But just to point out, if it wasn't already obvious, I have no problem with the sex workers themselves, that's wasn't my point at all. I'm just saying I have a problem with the entire system that exploits women and men. The original question was what are our views on pornography, not what are our views on the workers. Of course I understand that some people need the work (like any work) to sustain themselves. That does not mean however, that I should be in favour of an exploitative industry. (Take my original point on people working in McDonalds for instance.) Now on to what feminist means (at least to me), it means simply all people being treated equally, regardless of what sexual organs they have. This is why I really can't see how you can be an anarchist and not a feminist. But then again, there is such thing as national-anarchism. I think as anarchists we have to realise that of course feminists get portrayed as "man-haters" etc by the media and many other people (just as much as anarchism is portrayed as chaos etc.) but that's not actually true. Of course there are some women who hate men and I agree if they call themselves feminists, they do just reinforce the already negative stereotype of "feminazis". But this is true in every movement, there will always be people who give it a bad name. I would hope, that most people would see past that though. I don't think being a feminist man should be all that different than being a feminist woman (I could be wrong here), I mean of course we will both experience different aspects of patriarchy, but ultimately we all want the same end goal I would think.
Equality is what i am about as well, agree on that but still there are feminists who wiev it differently wich makes it confusing. Maybe 'equalist' should be a better word..? Yes there are bad seeds everywhere but what i think, juged by what i see all around me in different parts of society (anarchists or not) is that it's not so obvious what feminists want, again i find the word to be a bit misleading and excluding of men and that isn't what feminism is for me or from what you say to you. Feminism is sort of a silent thing in the background that needs to be brought up and put under a microscope, not only by you and me i hope. I also think we want the same, yes, but talking to feminist men they seem to get a bit confused by it themselves. Some don't know how polite they should be, if it's ok that they hold the door open for a woman or if she might think it is because she is a woman that he does it or if she will understand that he also would have if she was a man. Heterosexual feminist men of cause would also want to get some once in a while but some find it very difficult to be able to hit on a woman because he doesn't want her to think he is a pig, even if he has the best of intentions. To me as a straight feminist woman this can also sometimes be difficult, i mean, how clear do i have to be?! It's good that there are men who are trying to not be pigs and all but i find some to just be overly concerned about it. This wasn't at all on topic from what you originally wrote or from the original topic but i think it's an important issue that does relate.
exploitation is bad okay, but it only represent a very small percentage of the industry. most of the women do it because they agree, and some of them even because (yes i know its gonna shock you but its the truth) they like that and because it turns them off. i recall you that a couple of dozens of years ago, porn didnt exist because it shocked peoples and because it was politically incorrect. there was a lot of progress to make peoples understand that the women have the right to do it if they want... guess how it's called, and why it happenned ? feminism. because of feminism. believe it or not it is still a feminist progress if the women are allowed to do porn without being persecuted by the chruch and banned everywhere in movie rental stores. isn't it a progress that the women can have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies ? by the way there are famous feminists who are prostitutes or ex prostitutes, so yes, a feminist pornstar can exist. ....don't ask yourself why some peoples call the feminists "feminazis", sometimes it is really exaggerated and some feminists definatly act like fascists. just you, for example, you critize the peoples who watch porn just like we should feel guilty about it. what the fuck would you do in an anarchist society ? you would disallow every women to show their bodies if they want it ? you would persecute the women showing themselves ? a big step backwards and go back like it was 100 years ago with the religion oppressing the women and not letting them do what they want ? maybe make a police of the body to punish all women who chose to do porn ? seriously, i can't understand how you would apply your radical-feminist ideas in a concept of non-authoritarism... "my body, my choice" like jeunesse apatride says, the most famous anarchist band from quebec. or "my body is mine" like says the famous feminist slogan. sexual emancipation is a big part of feminism, don't forget that. worst part is that feminists like you encourage gay porn for sexual emancipation, so you should do the same thing for women. the problem is not porn itself, but the commercialization of it and the capitalist system. without capitalism, we would be sure that women would really do it because they enjoy it, not because they need the money. and i'm sure there still would be plenty of pornstars, and you have no reason to judge them or else you are acting the same way as those that the feminists critize.
You are completely missing the point...I know perfectly well that a lot of women agree to it...That does NOT MEAN I SHOULD SUPPORT IT. Yes take Andrea Dworkin, she was completely anti-pornography and worked as a prostitute at one stage in her life...what's your point??? I don't think you know that there are lots of TYPES of FEMINISTS...some are anti mainstream porn (like myself) and some are not. When did i criticise anybody for watching porn?? I have said numerous times people can do what they want! No i definitely would not "disallow" women to show their bodies, not in this society or in an anarchist society would I ever stop anybody from doing that. In an anarchist society patriarchy or capitalism wouldn't exist, so women wouldn't feel like they had to show their bodies. And if women or men did want to show their bodies in an anarchist society, fair play to them, that would be their own choice!! I would have no problem with that, why would I?! There is nothing inherently wrong with men or women showing their bodies. I completely agree it is a woman's choice whatever she wants to do with her body. I never said that it shouldn't be. As an aside when feminists say things like "my body, my choice", they tend to be referring to things like abortion rights... So i encourage gay porn now?! Wtf!!!! Where did you get that from?! I have to admit Ungovernable, you are comical at times. I will answer this by repeating something i ALREADY said...."were it nor for patriarchy or capitalism so many women or men wouldn't even consider selling their bodies".
Ungovernable, if you ever want to be able to have a civil conversation with anyone, you should try not to put words in their mouth or use scapegoat words like "nazi." It stinks of propaganda, and not the good kind either. This would be a perfect case of a way that the women's liberation movement has allowed patriarchy to control them, just in a different way. Earlier, patriarchy forced them to be prim and proper, now it forces them to be sluts. Whoa Where did anyone encourage that? Who are some feminist authors that encourage gay porn? I think that the large majority of sex workers hate what they do, then there's a large minority who just don't mind it. It's a way to make money, and you can make a lot of money in the business. Without patriarchy and capitalism, those people wouldn't be forced into the business, and they would do something that they actually enjoy, rather than something that they can deal with to get paid. Then there would be the very small minority who do it because they enjoy it. And to them, I say more power to 'em! Go for it, if you like it.
"This would be a perfect case of a way that the women's liberation movement has allowed patriarchy to control them, just in a different way. Earlier, patriarchy forced them to be prim and proper, now it forces them to be sluts." I suggest your read up on Sex-Positive Feminism and Pleasure Activism before you make statements like that. I think that the large majority of sex workers hate what they do, then there's a large minority who just don't mind it. Ok so how do you know this and can you show this as a fact because I have been involved in the industry fro a few years now as a sex-worker and as an advocate/activist and I have heard very few sex-workers who I have met at large social gatherings for sex-workers say that they hate the job. I have worked as a driver for an escort agency, I have done stints as a street worker and I am more inclined to work privately through my own network of clients. The only time I have heard serious concerns about the job is when men and women workers from agencies or brothels complain that they have to hand over a stupid amount of the night's earnings to management. Do you move in circles of sex-workers or do you just know one or two who used to work or work and hate it. I knw heaps of office workers, retail workers, hospitality workers and other who hate their jobs but we never complain about them now do we because their job is not associated with sex.
So you do not support something that a woman love to do ? You are not supporting a woman who does something she's fully willing to do, and you do not support a woman fighting against what others think, a woman that believe her body is her propriety and that she can do whatever the fuck she want to do ? Then you are definatly not a feminist... Once again, don't wonder why some peoples call you a "feminazi" when you act like the police of the body and you want to tell others what they should or shouldn't do with their body. Their body is their propriety, not your's. Care about your own business. My point is that if today women can do porn, it's because they fought for their right in the past. That's called feminism progress, and a feminist can't opposite to that. You should support the rights the women have aquired instead of fighting against them. Yesterday, when you said peoples like me who admit watching porn can't fight against the idiots selling out the punk scene by making publicity with women and their body, turning punk into a sex fashion and asking the peoples to rate them on a note of 10 like if it was a contest. "My body, my choice" is an argument for abortion right, yes, but it means that others shouldnt tell what the women can do with their bodies. This include prostitution and porn. Feminazi point of view and a huge generalization. See the below the post for the answer to this argument. Pornstars are underpaid and most of them do it because they enjoy it. Exhibitionism and fantasies would disseapear with the capitalism and patriarchy, you think ? Learn to read. I haven't said she is a nazi, i have said that i understand why some peoples call the feminists "feminazi" because it always take enormous proportions. You still didn't understand that most of those women do it because they agree, and like it. I'm talking about the members of this forum. Some of them are against women porn but they encourage gay porn for sexual emancipation Wow you are an ignorant. Most of them don't hate what they do, they enjoy it and even some of them, it turns them on. Inform yourself and do searches behind the appearances. There still would be a lot of pornstars, even with capitalism. Seriously, you are an ignorant. A pornstar is paid only a few hundreds of dollars for a movie, this is really not well paid for what they are doing. There is an episode of the "fric show" with Marc Labreche (very good TV serie that does a critique of the capitalist society) about the porn industry. They go interview pornstars of the most famous canadian agency and they explain how much they are paid for each of the thing they do. And seriously, they are underpaid. So the argument of "they do it for money" is totally false. In this TV serie, the pornstars interviewed also says that they all do it because they enjoy it. It's called exhibitionism, and believe it or not it's part of sexual emancipation.
I love porn (and so do some of my FEMALE friends). Ill call anyone names if i want (its a good form of constructive criticism sometimes). YOU FASCISTS PORN IS NOT BAD. ITS WHAT CERTAIN PEOPLE DO TO FUCK UP THIS WHOLE IMAGE. And to be honest, a lot of the women in these videos want to do porn (A WOMANS RIGHT) as much as you want to see it end, so Porn comes down to freedom of expression in my book, and if they want to do porn, then do it.
Good for you! Watch porn if you want...And women or men can "do" porn if they want! You're right that's their choice. I am anti mainstream porn as I think a lot of people only take part in porn due to capitalism and patriarchy, but I would never EVER EVER stop a person from appearing in it. That's my own personal decision and opinion, and I wouldn't force that on anybody. The only thing I would try and do is to eliminate patriarchy and capitalism, so we can know if people actually want to do it, or whether they have to. The way I see it is if women are conditioned to treat themselves as sex objects....and when a 13 year old girl wants to get a boob job...is that REALLY her choice, or is it that she was conditioned to think that?? The only thing I would actively do to stop the "conditioning" though is by educating people...not by censoring porn or by stopping people from doing things, that doesn't work, and it's not right.
this is absolutely correct, the pornograpy industy is a dark, scummy place. and is overlooked and ignored by governments, why? becasue the men run the government.. and the men love thier porn, im a male and im digusted, becasue like everything, nudity has its place.. and its place is in fine art, where people can appriciate the beauty or a female body.. not "brittany gets fucked up the ass"
the porn industry isn't a dark, scummy place - it's just another entertainment business and meanwhile one of the top five in the u.s.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography#Statistics so the industry pays a remarkable amount of income and value-added taxes and by the way: so it isn't justa habit for politicians and state officials to watch "brittany gets fucked up the ass", maybe it's a "male" thing because most of the porn productions are featuring male sexual preferences and kinda male point of view on brittany... protection of minors, health care and hiv-prevention are standards by now, some top-selling company i-forgot-the-name-of had it's own "adult industry clinic" in los angeles, salary is quite good based on the nature and scope of the previously agreed performances of the actors. morals and prejudices aside, it's just another shitty way for some to make money in capitalism.
touche. im not sure about he statistics you provided, he probably did those studies on nice big comfortable playboy mansion type porn businesses, which i have no issue with. pornography IS art, and it should be respected as such, the key word being "respect" now if a company respects its empolies, pays then what they deserve, and takes no advantage of them. then your right, it is just another business.. wheter its "art" or not is in the eyes of the beholder, but this isnt about that males veiw pronograpy more because of the mental conditioning impressed upon them, a male is rewarded with praise for being seually promiscus while a femal is scorned for being "loose" and girls HAVE to think of sex differently, even with alternative options now provided she would have to have the baby.. the dad can run off and live happily ever after the type of porn i was adressing was more of internet material, and i should have specified on that, while the porn industry does have its nice, clean appearance.. theres no denying that many of the women are mistreated, its an issue, and it has to be faced.. there have been steps to help these women.. but is it enough? if ONE hustler model has no option but to expose and sell herself, then isnt that the fault of the consumer that funds the group forcing her into it? by the way.. if you look up what the crack markets value is.. its pretty impressive to, just becasue something is worth a lot of moeny doesnt speak to its moral justification
right about the "art"-aspect, personally i have some difficulties to apply the art-definition on the examples of mass-media-production in porn i've seen, the business as we know it is as old as visual media - and there is nothing really new or mindblowing to be found anymore. from my point of view it's just a "business" earning profits by exploiting the results of a "patriarchal" dominated culture, it's contradictory ridiculous "morals" and the social alienation in capitalism. (edit: "patriarchal" in the tradition of the previous economic systems, but not in today's realities") aren't dark, scummy places - as i said before - but no matter how nice and respectful a company treats it's employees, it's still exploitation, because said employees don't get paid what they deserved - because if they would reap the fruits of their labour there would be no profits for the bosses taking advantage from their need to make a living - and the customers demand for that special kind of entertainment... capitalism isn't right just because labour legislation and interpersonal friendlyness are accepted, mr. anarchist. well that's kinda socio-biological bullshits brought up by some rightwing crackademics who usually end up justifying crimes like capitalism, domination, violence and "the survival of the fittest" with the individual male "need" to have as many descendants as possible because "it's all in the genes". porn hasn't anything to do with the realities people live in, it's all about phantasies tailored to fit a large number of customers being bored with their everydays life including their social relations, maybe their sexual relations too. the feminist's anti-porn myths have not become true, there is no wave of gene-crazed rapists and serial-runaway-dad's coming up - just because there are no genes forcing you to do what you have to do because you're male - the simple proof: the majority of the worlds male population outside western societies still lives without this special kind of mass-entertainment despite they could have access via the world wide media. a far more reasonable explanation "why porn is a male thing" comes from the very smart and experienced Naomi Klein: http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/male_brain/ and for humanity's sake - surrogating affection and maybe personal love with some acrobatics, "dirty" language - and worst of all: a measurements cliche` isn't really anybody's thing and for sure not mine and most of other womyn still fitting into the male standards of "female attractivity". another cliche' brought up by the industry for promotional use only - the "casual" or "amateur" branch of the business. do you really believe this stuff would be on the nets or on the general market if there was even the smallest hint that these productions were "illegal" - breaking the laws in any aspect? there are no models "forced" to expose themselves, no snuff movies with "real" rapings - it would be bad for business to have the cops and public prosecutors on your heels... the "real" criminal stuff is still only circulating in certain "underground" groups, less interested in "sex" but more in "violence" and other unhealthy aspects resulting from a multitude of personality disorders - paedophiles and crazed mutants like them - and i guess that this isn't the "porn" on we talk about. i never justified porn - i just gave my point of view about your prejudical valuations - again: it isn't "dirty", it isn't tolerated legally as a minority's preference or a tool to condition the masses away from reality. it's just one of the major businesses under thrice cursed capitalism, and to me there is no difference in selling your ass in a factory to make a living or selling your ass in a porn movie to make a living. i don't think there are any "morals" - human history is full of those "eternal truths" and they never worked very well, so i prefer to evaluate aspects of life for their results on individuals and societies and not some old-age good vs. bad-views. what about the "morals" of the weapons-, the nuclear-, the food industry - are people working there more "morally" acceptable - because they are usually still dressed while producing for their bosses profits?
you make some intresting points, and i do agree with some of what your saying, and you back up your points well, i can respect that i never said it was illegal, they are forced into a corner by the capitialist society, if a girl goes into the porn industry it is probably from a "young" age, 18-20. If they arent paid their fair share (which they arent, but you cant have a business and pay out all your earnings to your employees) then chances are, theyre not getting into Harvard law anytime soon, and any job that would pay better then doing pornos would run a background check, and reject the application.. so then the best (only sensible) career path remains in the porn industry. i just want to put this out there to begin with, i do not think men are supperior then women in ANY way, women are equal, but dismissing the truth that there are entirely different mindsets between the sexes would just be silly. men think about sex more, and they think about it differently, how that is justifying criminal activities, sexism, or anything else of that nature is beyond me. Ialso dont rember saying that serial abandoment was an issue, but the female takes more responisiblity for the baby no matter what, its just the way the world is, its deff. not a good thing, but its real and its undeniable, you cant argue with science, and its not that FACTS that misinform, its how people use them, becasue its vry eas to twist facts statistics and studies in your favour
