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Freedom Of Speech?

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by Anxiety69, May 15, 2010.

  1. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    and not only he ignored that post, but he also ignored my last post.

    it's so much easier to ignore rather than having to answer an opinion contradictiong your's, eh ngnm85 ? :)
     
  2. ghoul

    ghoulExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Yes

    Yes

    Yes

    The thing with freedom is there are consequences to what you say. You say you have a bomb on a plane expect to be shot by an air marshal. Yell fire in a theater expect a lawsuit from the families of the people that get trampled.

    You say you are going to rape my daughter and you better expect me to kill you!!
     
  3. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Then this is hypocrite freedom of speech. There is no real freedom of speech of you have consequences like that, saying there is freedom of speech is just a politically correct way of saying that we can't control you of saying or not these things, so you are allowed since we can't disallow you, but the consequences will be so big that you will not even use that freedom of speech.
     
    LordManHammer likes this.
  4. ghoul

    ghoulExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Freedom does not mean you are free from consequence. I believe you should be free to make any decision for yourself you choose to make, from what words you speak to what you put in your body. No one should ever tell another they cannot smoke. That should always be left to the individual. If they so choose to smoke and they get cancer that is the consequence. That is freedom. The ability to make decisions, even bad ones.
     
  5. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    So saying "you are free to say whatever you want but if you talk about something we don't like we will send you to jail" is freedom of speech since free speech doesn't mean you are free from consequence ? No, that's just another way to say "we can't force you to not say what we don't want, but if you do there will be consequences"
     
  6. ghoul

    ghoulExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    No. What I am saying is you can say whatever you want and you won't go to jail. Now if you say something blatantly racist on a radio show you may lose you job on said radio show. If you yell fire in a crowded theater and someone gets hurt then you are responsible for that. If you threaten someone and they beat your ass in response you probably have it coming. But at no time should you ever be jailed for words. That are just that, words.

    Freedom of speech is more important for the protection it provide for speech you disagree with. If I disagree with you and silence you then what is to stop someone else from silencing me when they disagree with me? Let the bigots say what they want. They will only do a better job at describing how wrong they are than you ever could. Have you ever actually listened to someone from the KKK speak? It is so easy to shoot holes in everyone of their arguments if you let them set themselves up.

    Ultimately it comes down to this. To control words is to control thought. I can't think of anything that goes against the idea of freedom than that.
     
  7. Bunny

    BunnyExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    They're not just talking though, they want people to go out and act on what they are saying, do you understand that? Also when they spread their ideas to their children, and thus is born another group of bigots and the message of hate continues.

    go look at a neo-nazi site, its nothing but absolutely terrible trash.
    Also why are you standing up for them? Why wouldn't you want to shoot them down, the words they say harm others and you're telling us that they should go on listening to shit they preach because you're under this illusion of free-speech for everyone?
     
  8. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Go explain your fantastic delusions to that 7 year old little girl and her dad and mom murdered in Arizona by some minutemen last year, ghoul.........
     
  9. ghoul

    ghoulExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I am not stand up for nazis, I am standing up for freedom. Yes, murder happens and I am not condoning that in any way. What I am saying is freedom is more important than a FEELING of security. Sure it would feel great to silence every racist in the world but would that end racism? The answer is no. The only thing that will happen there is you will silence your self as well. History has proven that when one group of people lose freedom everyone loses. It is not a delusion it is historic fact.

    I think you also misunderstand me when I say that I support free speech for everyone, racists included. I in no way condone what they say and do not believe that they should just be ignored entirely. Every effort should be made to counter their views. I firmly believe that this should be done in a manner that is 180 degrees from what they would do. If they preach hate, intolerance, and violence, then you should preach love, tolerance, and peace. More than just preach, ACT! Be active in your community whenever possible. Do things that will bring people together. As Gandhi said "BE the change you wish to see in the world."

    For me freedom is the most important aspect in life because without it we have no life worth living. Whether it be in an anarchist society, a democratic one, or some other system yet devised, it is the one goal we should strive for. Not only for ourselves but for everyone equally. To take someone's freedom is exactly what a Nazi wishes to do so I will always go the opposite way.
     
  10. scarycarey

    scarycareyMember New Member


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    There's a fine line between personal free speech and incitement free speech, (The right to express my opinion ends at the other guy's jaw)
    but I think there's a BROAD line between political free speech and incitement speech.
    There's a gray, nearly transparent line between the personal and political and both sides have danced on it for years.

    I suppose it depends on the person. We all have freak out buttons where instinct kicks in and freedom goes out the window
     
  11. punkmar77

    punkmar77Experienced Member Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    "If they preach hate, intolerance, and violence, then you should preach love, tolerance, and peace."

    Because thats worked out so well with them hasn't it? And before you start quoting Ghandi to us you'd better do some reading on exactly how and by whom India was liberated from the English....it took a shitload of struggle and bullets and blood and death by many factions not just Ghandi and his followers. And another thing ghoul, I would suggest to you to re-read the "Who we are" text because your going down the same path as NGNM85 and this forum is not about free speech for nazi's, supremacists, or fascists of any kind. I wont go as far as others have and start on a childish name calling tirade, but this isn't the place for anarchist defense of "freedom of hatespeech".
     
  12. AtomicKhaos

    AtomicKhaosExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    screaming fire in a crowded movie theatre would cause anarchy. that sounds good to me
     
  13. ungovernable

    ungovernableAutonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    You prove once again that you don't know what anarchy is.
     
  14. Protspecd

    ProtspecdExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I hope that is sarcasm =P

    It would cause chaos (unless everyone is somewhat sensible about it), not anarchy.
     
  15. JesusCrust

    JesusCrustExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 17, 2010
     
    Anarchy is more about the equality and freedoms of every living thing, and less about "doing whatever the fuck you want to do."
    That is just the 15 year old ideology of "Anarchism". Enforcement of certain "laws" is a necessity in an anarchistic society, your freedom ends where an others begins, meaning you do NOT have the right to do something if it results in the mistreatment, discrimination or inequality of another human being.
     
  16. JesusCrust

    JesusCrustExperienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    There's a quote from this book I'm reading called "The anarchists" which is just a compilation of many writings of famous anarchist philosophers, that goes something along of the lines of (I don't currently have the book on me, so I'm gonna try to play this by ear bear with me here): "The anarchist must maintain an element of an authoritarian stance while simultaneously opposing totalitarianism."
     
  17. The Hat

    The HatExperienced Member Experienced member


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    Since this thread is already over three pages, I am only going to address the original opening salvo of this thread and contribute my two cents worth (Or tuppence, if you like) and not parse any of the replies posted so far.

    In doing so, I hope that I am not violating any rules or policies of this forum, and I apologize in advance if that's how my reply is interpreted.

    The examples you have used in your argument for free speech are not that of a free form exchange of different ideas, opinions, ideologies, etc. (Anarchy/socialism vs Capitalism autonomy vs collectivism, racism vs inclusion et al) but are words that are basically THREATS to one's personal physical safety and well being. (As well as mental and emotional threats)

    To make statements that you are personally carrying a bomb while you're on an airplane (Or aeroplane if you're British/european) or to suggest that the theater you are sitting in is on fire when it is fully crowded, sold out, and there is no threat of immolation, is to physically,and psychically pose a threat to one's physical safety and emotional state of mind, and the end result is that innocent people can be killed or injured because of these statements. Joking about bombs on air crafts or fires in theaters or enclosed public places isn't funny.

    Now if a neo nazi group or the Ku Klux Klan, (Or EDL or National Front or Europe Awake) wants to hold a rally where they want to spout their opinions, I believe that they should have the right to do so.

    WHY?

    Because if they are allowed to have their say in a public forum, then people will be able to keep an eye on them, and make sure that it doesn't go any further than for a bunch of misguided idiots to wear out their vocal chords. Plus people who oppose such rhetoric will organize and counter demonstrate against these extremist. This is an opportunity to EDUCATE!

    Also, one must realize that if these people DON'T have the right to hold their rallies, not only will they go underground, plan clandestine activities that will result in innocent people getting killed (Think OKC bombing of 1995) those in power to grant demonstration permits will take away OUR rights to hold a counter-demonstration against them.

    There are those who would say that they'll go away if we ignore them, and even those who think the world would be a better place if they weren't allowed to hold their rallies, etc. but history has shown that this isn't the way to bring an end to racism, fascism, and injustice against all people. Paying attention to what is being said, countering what has been said with FACTS, and education IS the BEGINNING of the way to dismantle the racist system, and, ultimately bring an end to it.

    I apologize in advance if I have broken any rules, violated any policies, and have offended anybody, but this is just MY opinion.

    I am open to any and all replies and free form exchanges of opinions and ideas, AS LONG AS EACH PARTY CAN REMAIN CIVIL TO ONE ANOTHER!
     
  18. The Hat

    The HatExperienced Member Experienced member


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    DISCLAIMER: I am well aware of the rules and the policies banning hate speech, neo nazis, MAGA trolls, etc and I think those rules are a GOOD THING!

    Those people only serve to distract and disrupt concentration on the REAL issues that not only affect the individual members of this site, but the world in general.

    I don't want them here, and I feel safe knowing that they are not welcome here.

    I do not encourage nor endorse those people and their rhetoric, and I wouldn't want them to disrupt any civil dialogue that people may have.

    There are other forums for them to go to.

    I post this disclaimer as I don't want to be misunderstood, misconstrued, or misinterpreted.

    That is NOT censorship, but site policy as set up by the administrators.
     
  19. FrozenSOul

    FrozenSOulNew Member New Member


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    Attica, Greece Greece
    Honestly i dont think that we should allow fascists junk to have any kind of freedom of speech.
    Blocking them from expressing their ideas is what our goal is since separting people because of their skin color or religion is , based on common logic , WRONG
    So i honestly dont think we should allow any fascist junk express their idead publicly ,instead they should fear.
    Greetings from Greece
     
  20. The Hat

    The HatExperienced Member Experienced member


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    I understand your position, but I respectfully disagree.
    However, that being said, as i have stated earlier in this thread, I am glad that they are not welcome HERE!

    Please remember I am only offering my personal opinion, and my own point of view based on my own personal life's experience in life.

    This site is a nazi/fascist free zone. Let's work together to keep it that way, no matter what our outlook or point of view on the subject mater.
     

9 members have read this thread this month

  1. Red Menace
  2. Gaffen
  3. ungovernable
  4. aint ashamed
  5. pogo pope
  6. punkmar77
  7. Charger Bullet
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