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Punk = Change?

Discussion in 'Music, punk scene & subcultures' started by Burn1ng, May 2, 2011.

  1. Burn1ng

    Burn1ng Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 24, 2011
     
    I do understand you more than you can imagine Freakboi, since I'm very poor myself (been using the same pair of vans chucks for over 2 years, even though they're mostly ripped off and pretty dirty) But I wasn't trying to say that you have to dress punk to be one, I myself couldn't be one if my own words were set in stone. What I tried to say is that punk aesthetic is more important than people seem to realize, but if you dress normal without compromising your principles then you probably are more punk than any stupid kid wearing hot topic shit.


    @Ungov While I'm not sure if I agree with what you said I'm glad you gave your input here.

    -------------------

    All this said... I feel my problem is mostly because I wouldn't want to stand for punk if it seems to prostitute itself all the time and therefore loose all value.
     
  2. AgentOrange

    AgentOrange Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I have long ceased to call myself 'Punk'.

    People without looking like 'punk' are more than you could possibly imagine, while someone with a million 'conflict'-, 'crass'-, 'oi polloi'-patches and a thousand of 'punkish' studs'n'stuff can be an idiot, not knowing anything about the shit he hefts around on his vest&pants.

    Punk is in the head, not in the look. The wedding dress proves this perfectly. ;)
     
  3. Burn1ng

    Burn1ng Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 24, 2011
     
    So you stopped considering yourself Punk just because of some dumb kids who had no idea what they were getting themselves into?

    Did you actually put all punks in the same bag and out of disgust you ceased to call yourself punk so to not be connected with those "damn stupid kids"?

    I think I already left it pretty damn clear that I don't think punk is a uniform, wearing a dirty 'ol dress or a couple rags for pants and shirt can also be Punk, it depends on what you do with those.

    Yes Punk is indeed in the head and not just the looks, it's one of the things I've been saying the entire topic, just because I give importance to the aesthetic doesn't meant I'm ruling out the stuff in between the ears.

    Why people keep asuming that you can't have one thing with another... =/.
     
  4. DirtyRottenThrashPunk

    DirtyRottenThrashPunk Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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  5. AgentOrange

    AgentOrange Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 28, 2010
     
    @ Burn1ng:

    partially for that first one. but: I've still wearing some DIY stuff, customized clothes (no band-patches, for personal favor) and on. it just sucks being constantly compared to some boozing kids or some ultra-heavy-crust-punks (without further "individuality" apart from the uniform, not trying to generalize!).

    main reason though is that I don't need the word 'punk' to define myself. neither anarcho-punk (what sounds somewhat hilarious, in my opinion... "hey, hello, my name is xyz and i'm anarcho-punk ftw!!" :lmao: ).

    I'm moving in and out of various scenes, the local punks, but also a fair amount of hippie-leaning people, a ton of crusties, and so on...
    but still I don't need to identify with any of them. no 'punk' for me, anymore ;)

    this. and for what is in my head I wouldn't call punk, i wouldn't call myself a punk. call me an anarchist, call me a hippie, call me a punk, but nothing of these words fit the description...

    I think, if you see someone with a fully designed 'punk'-look on the streets, the first thought would be: "shit. that must be hours and days of work. isn't there a more useful method to waste time?"
    don't get me wrong. i know many persons who are in fact, very creative and they kinda live it out in their looks or art, but in their heads, i know for sure, is more than just that. that two things work together, but most people follow the first impression (looks, appearance...).

    oh, also most of the sold 101 'punk-clothing' looks terribly boring :lmao:
     
  6. Burn1ng

    Burn1ng Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 24, 2011
     
    Well if you don't need to call yourself a Punk nor anarcho-punk that's ok, however I don't find anything wrong with people calling themselves that (unless they're sold out punks, in which case they're fucking assholes). As for me if I were punk I wouldn't feel bad for being associated with a bunch of stupid kids or ignorant wannabes who are into crust or punk just for the cool points. If I did let that get to me I'd feel like I'm letting those people win, know what I mean?.

    "Oh all right you stupid children win, you can keep Punk for all I care, I won't associate myself with it anymore".

    That's how I look at it.

    And about the clothing... honestly when I see punks fully dressed in the "standard style" I've never thought about how much time they waste to achieve that look, in fact I often find myself a bit jealous when I see them, although when I see someone wearing a Exploited shirt (which is more often that I'd like) I tend to think "wow he must be a real punkrocker if he worshippes some shitty UK82 hardcore band".

    I do admit that I find it frustrating that a pretty punk girl here where I live would rather date some idiot wearing the aforementioned shirt (and with a mohawk sometimes too) than someone like me who probably has a more diverse punk taste (instead of listening the same shit all day) just because he looks "oh so fucking punk!".

    Yeah I know many so called "punks" are shallow like that, but dropping the association one has with the word, in my mind, would just mean that we'd be letting them win and keep the term with all its history, meaning, values and such.

    And I for one don't give a shit about letting THEM WIN.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    That's what I think but of course it is not my place to talk as if I were a punk. Right now I don't know if I can be one, if people and life will let me be a punk... will let me be what I want.


    P.S: With "sold 101 punk clothes" you mean the stuff that's sold at places like Hot Topic right?.
     
  7. SurgeryXdisaster

    SurgeryXdisaster Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Story of my fucking life! :'(
     
  8. Burn1ng

    Burn1ng Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 24, 2011
     
    I see I'm not the only one then... :(.

    You see that's why I ask "Can I be a Punk?" It's not because of me it's because of THEM. It's because of being sorrounded by close minded, violent people who claim to be "the most punk there is" even if they don't say it with their own words, everything from their looks to their attitude screams "I'm so fucking punk and you're all posers" yet while not bothering to question ANYTHING at all, they'll just buy the first "rebellious" shit that comes their way.

    It really upsets me when you people say "don't give a shit about it, be a punk!, who cares if you're alone?" "Who cares if there are not worthy punk where you live?"

    I know you mean well... but you're also doing more damage to me with your good intentions than those "realpunx" could ever do.

    I'll tell you why...

    2010 was by far the shittiest year in my life, I DO NOT FUCKING EXAGGERATE when I say that if I had to relive all that year again I would kill myself in the act without hesitating.

    The reason for this is very simple:

    I had no human communication whatsoever with other people other than my mom and my brother, for almost an entire year. I barely talked a couple of time to some acquaitances on the web and that's pretty much it.

    Can you say that I did have human contact with my coworkers (had a job until july) if you consider the fact that I had no fucking similarities with any of them? In fact most of the stuff they talked about and listened to and the way they behaved was against my every belief and thoughts. Are you saying that I should have abandoned everything I stood for and ended up giving in their music and behavior to become one of them? To drop everything I ever cherished to start digesting shitty reality tv shows and the like?

    As you can imagine I felt no connection to those people, they weren't mean to me or anything but we were just worlds apart.

    So all this derived in the fact that I ended up so utterly, maddening, hopelessly and fucking alone that I was on the verge of suicide several times last year, if fact I CAN'T even try to remember almost anything that happened without feeling a pain in my chest and an anxiety that only calms down after a while.

    Yes, it is very easy for you to say... "You don't need friends to be an anarchist punk!" but you just can't possibly put yourselves in my shoes, I know I can't put myself in your, but you just really wouldn't understand (I mean it) what I went through 2010.

    My family and I lived in a really shitty place, I could do nothing but watch horrible local TV and go to gigs where anarcho-wannabes pogoed mindlessly drunk and acting like stupid fucks.

    I was so fucking depressed that I couldn't even grab a fucking book to read.

    I was the entire time from may to december without making a single friend, without nobody other than my family to discuss politics and religion (and in most subjects we'd always stand on opposite sites of the road). It'd have been nice to have some support, someone to lean on.

    So my point is (sorry to use caps again):

    I DON'T WANT TO WALK THE FUCKING PATH OF ANARCHO-PUNK JUST TO END UP LIKE I WAS LAST YEAR, EVERY SINGLE FUCKING HUMAN BEING NEEDS FRIENDS AND A CIRCLE TO GIVE HIM SUPPORT AND FRIENDSHIP. I HAVE NONE OF THOSE RIGHT NOW AND IF I HAVE TO GO THROUGH 2010 ALL OVER AGAIN I'LL FUCKING ABANDON PUNK ROCK AND ANARCHISM (and most likely end up my own life as a result).

    That's it for now... I know it sounds rough, but I'm seriously not going through 2010 again :(.
     
  9. Ragdoll420

    Ragdoll420 New Member New Member


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    Apr 7, 2011
     
    Change is reflected from within and then outward. A set way of dress doesnt make you who you are , but it reflects your sense of identity. What really matters most is your attitude. sticking to your ideals , and being true to what you say or do. I Could give a shit less what i look like or whether or not people will accept me. staus quo , money , property , clothing its just a rationalised way of keeping a barrier to unity in place.

    We all should be unfied in our hearts and attitudes. Really now is there any set way to do this?

    Change your perspective , read your literature , know your shit , listen to the music , worry about all the other stuff later.

    If you go through hard times , then stick with it keep your head held high , keep fighting and most importantly do what you need to do to survive and keep yourself happy.
     
  10. Burn1ng

    Burn1ng Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 24, 2011
     
    Thanks for your words, I guess I just got too desperate for the shit I went through last year, but I'll try to make things differently now so to have a happier life, but for that I need to have a clear mind with clear ideas and feelings, and knowing what punk and anarchism are all about and if they do have affinity with my own ethics and morals are the first step.

    Well perhaps this topic has reached its conclusion, I guess Punk, rather than an idea, is a feeling one has inside. So if the admins or mods think there is no more stuff to add to this topic then just close it.
     
  11. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Punk is not a private club, you don't need your member card or anyone's approval to claim to be punk. Same thing for anarchism.
     
  12. Burn1ng

    Burn1ng Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 24, 2011
     
    Thanks for your input Ungovernable. What you say is true however, I'd argue that, while punk isn't a private club many communities are formed around it and those I think have certain "consensus" on things relating to punk like for example, most punk communities will think that Sid Vicious was a punk icon and punks should look up to him, if someone who claims to be punk enters that community and says that Richard Hell was the quintessential punk icon and Vicious was just a fucked up kid, chances are everyone in that community will reject him. What I mean is that people with different views from those of the communities will end up being marginalized, therefore in some way those communities are like private clubs, they can deny it all they want but I haven't seen proof of the contrary.

    This I don't want to happen to me. I know I'm being weak and a crybaby perhaps, but I just can't handle being alone anymore.

    P.S: Quick questions, has anyone ever heard of Vivien Goldman? Apparently she knows a lot about punk and interviewed Richard Hell among others, is she a reliable source on punk?.
     
  13. Bakica

    Bakica Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    As a matter of fact, I had to muy "membership" card for Antifa gig, and they wrote everyones name in one book. But, nevermind, it wasn't expensive at all :lmao:
     
  14. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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  15. Burn1ng

    Burn1ng Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 24, 2011
     
    Thank you for the links vAsSiLy77!, however I already checked the wikipedia one, I will read the others though :thumbsup:. But in your opinion, is she a reliable source on punk?.
     
  16. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Dunno, I was reading some of her punkrelated stuff decades ago, around the time she was with Chrissie Hynde and Flying Lizzards, but lost interest when she promoted reggae and global music - just not my cup of tea.
    Just forget about "reliability" concerning something like "Punk" - again I say:
    There are Punks, doing their thing at their time, everything else is just a point of view on second and third hand news and stories.
     
  17. Burn1ng

    Burn1ng Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 24, 2011
     
    I see, thanks for your answers Vassily, they're indeed helpful to me :). I am reading the wikinews interview now and with some stuff she says I agree with and some other I don't. She says punk is change and social change which I agree with, but then she goes on to say that Pete Doherty is a punk, like to me she's confusing concepts, if every society reject or rebellious person was a punk then gang kids and delinquents who listen to reggaethon would be punks too. And also she's friends with Flavor Flav, wtf.
     
  18. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    The problem is too strict categorizing: Was Joe Strummer a punk, or Richard Lester Meyers and Patti Smith before him? Ask three people and get five opinions - and who is to say they're "wrong"?
    Right now I'm watching some early documentaries about the 80's scenes around Munich and Warzaw - compared to the Poles we were nothing but posers with a middleclass background and enough social security to save even the most rejected or delinquent rebel from suffering the full impact of our deviance.
    And sad but true: People get older, established and part of the culture business, just look at ol'Viv's picture...
     
  19. Burn1ng

    Burn1ng Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I'd argue that Hell and Strummer were, but it seems to me Smith just used punk as a vehicle for her ideas, since before that she was using rock as her vehicle anyways, but problem is, just because you start out as a punk doesn't mean you'll remain one, I think it depends on how much you change, true, everything changes in the universe however when something changes too much that it is unrecognizable from what it was first then it becomes something completely different.

    I think that counts for punk and punks as well, I think life is a struggle every day and those who can't keep following their own idea of punk or modify the idea so much that it becomes a different one then they are no longer punks to me, just because Vivien Goldman teaches punk doesn't mean she's one and just because Strummer started as a punk it doesn't mean he remained one till the day of his death, if he gave in into the industry and system he preached against, then to me it is impossible to consider him punk, might have been one in the begginings of the Clash, but by the end he was just probably a good rock musician. In Hell's case, from what I've seen on his website he supports mostly regular rock or "indie" bands now, but to me he was the first punk and therefore the creator of it, the sound of the songs I've listened in Blank Generation are still raw, fast and angry enough to be considered by me as punk rock.

    This is my own idea I'm starting to make about punk for myself, it is obviously an opinion but one formed on facts I've read over the net and documentaries, interviews, etc.

    There is always some truth in most things, and in the muddy history of punk is unlikely that everything is either a lie or a twisted truth.

    In the end I'd say to punks, stay true to yourselves, don't give in into what you're against, don't conform, no matter how difficult the times. Be strong! :thumbsup:.

    P.S: I should clarify that if I make all these (I know, tiring) questions here and not in other communities like punkrockers.com is because you all seem to not mind questioning those punk musicians you look up to like Crass (and Rimbaud too perhaps?) and other "first wave" anarcho punk bands, crust punk bands and others, what I mean is that it seems to me you're all mostly less biased and to me that's very valuable :) (but I obviously won't agree to everything you guys say ;)).
     
  20. Jamesxjames

    Jamesxjames Member Forum Member


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    Punk can be many things. But based on "Punk is not a private club, you don't need your member card or anyone's approval to claim to be punk. Same thing for anarchism." said somewhere in this forum (and I agree, being an anarchist, I support all people in all their decisions as long as they are made out of personal desire), I would say punk is mainly a bunch of teenagers/20 somethings who drink a lot (or not at all), talk a lot of shit about each other and everything else, and basically live a slightly more progressive version of a stereotypical white trash lifestyle. When I was traveling, I found a few people who thought that me coming from a wealthy family made me less than them. I never understood. Then I found out they only pretend to believe in the things they claim are the basis of their existence because claiming those beliefs helps them not to feel so bad about themselves, and for a lot of people it's all about avoiding discomfort. They never said it, but really they just thought there was an easier way for me to avoid discomfort. :lmao: \m/
     
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