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When will people realize enough is enough.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by JoeyV, Dec 27, 2010.

  1. NumberLast

    NumberLast Active Member Forum Member


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    Oct 17, 2010
     
    Veg Barbarian, I think almost all of your arguments are sound but this:
    I personally find offensive. Now to make an assumption, which I dislike doing, I will go so far as to say you were asserting a generalization about the laziness and nihilism of the average teen. Aren't labels and preconceptions one of the things we're fighting against. I may be new to Anarchism but I'm not new to being looked down on. I may be wrong but you seem to imply that being of the teenage affliction prevents one from ushering in social change. As well as the afformentioned activities
    I'm a part of a youth leadership program in my city who, as well as many other plans to improve the town, have built a community garden to allow citizens to become more self sufficient.
    Perhaps this is not what you meant and I am just over reacting but to assume youth cannot initiate change would be faulty logic. (especially seeing as the punk movement was founded by young adults and youths)
     
  2. (A)noise

    (A)noise New Member New Member


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    Dec 29, 2010
     
    Although I heated the fire to this thread I agree.
    But come on I just had to have the last word in this with punkmar77 :lmao:
    I mean He did get me banned from this site for not doing what he said. Another person trying to divide.
    Well I just made this account just to get music from this site one last time As I will not be on this site from now since I've gotten banned. Catch ya later people.
     
  3. punkmar77

    punkmar77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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    Anytime you feel up to it Joey, you come see me with Diatribe and we'll have a good 'talk' and a laugh over a beer ;)
     
  4. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jun 21, 2010
     
    @ anoise - good riddance, even despite your coming out as the cheap kind of consumer you obviously are, at least I will not miss you!
    @vegetarian barbarian: First, a bit hypocritical to blame anxiety for messing up the topic by stating his opinion? I hardly ever agreed with him, but his opinion is at least more constructive than offending and contradictory like the more recent examples of people you blame for the circumstance in which they live. Very barbaric to me, and at least as destructive as anxietys "hate".

    I strongly doubt that you really know what you are talking about.
    I spend quite some time with collective and self sufficient farming, learned a lot of things and skills and gained enough experience to realize that it would be just impossible to send off the complete earth population in the wilderness "to live off the land" - and if you would have more knowledge about your weekend survival hobby, I believe you would have realized it too. The space necessary to feed a single human with the outcome of non-modern farming is so huge, that it's just impossible to do the job all alone - shit, so you will have to end up in a collective again... adieu, dear secludedness!
    Ah, yesss - and your favorite little nightmare of wiping the plate clean, sounds too much like charlie mansons helter skelter to be taken serious - but despite this: how? ABC-warfare and a fingersnip to erase it's consequences of pollution and contamination? Staying in a death-valley cave & tell me when it's over?
    Your statement about human nature is just ridiculous: Do you know how old archeological evidence for "violent death" in our evolution is? Roughly 10.000 years - the first victims of feuds, hostile raids or war date back to the mesolithicum, which started around 9.600 years before our actual calendar. Our species homo sapiens sapiens dates back to 250.000 before our actual calendar - so your "human nature" is just a little something of barely 4 % of the time we needed to become what we are. And I would not be surprised to hear that you don't know about the economical and sociological changes that started around the same time - the development of agriculture for example, resulting in territorialism and hierarchy - oh shit - your little illusion might not work!
    190.000 years of spreading out over the whole earth - in small and weak groups starting out from north africa and all the time dependable on genetic exchange with the rare stranger crossing the way to prevent inbreeding. No other species was that successful in making the last corner of the globe inhabitable - but led by a nature including murderous violence as main characterisation?
    And I really love to see some kind of individualist critisizing Anarchism for "bringing Anarchism to"... please stop wasting time with those survival guides and get some science and especially anarchist literature before you talk about it. But somehow I guess you rather keep on changing society by running away from it...

    interesting reading for a start:
    http://www.ffzg.unizg.hr/arheo/ska/teks ... arfare.pdf
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... archtype=a
     
  5. JesusCrust

    JesusCrust Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 17, 2010
     

    Fuck you and your blatant sexist language, and more so the fact you don't give a shit if you offend anyone.
    So fuck you, you obviously don't belong on this site.
     
  6. KAAOS-82

    KAAOS-82 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jul 13, 2010
     
    To clarify I'm not a green anarchist. I don't necessarily want a nuclear blast to occur, my point was more directed to the the inevitable time in the not too distant future where humanity won't be able to sustain itself and that something catastrophic will happen that will wipe out a significant portion of population. Be it disease, famine, natural disaster or man made disaster. A rather bleak perspective I admit but definitely something thats becoming more apparent throughout the 21st century. depending on your definition of peace, are we referring to international conflicts, internal conflicts or complete pacification of humanity? Humans are animals, they get violent. Pacifism of humanity is impossible.

    I was going to respell it but then i thought it looked funny in the entire sentence, I'm not thick haha.
    I generally don't trash talk, it gets reduced to that when people start trying to take the moral high ground.
     
  7. KAAOS-82

    KAAOS-82 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jul 13, 2010
     
    If your referring to me
    1. I've read my fair share of anarchist literature, I have entire bookshelves filled with it.
    2. I've tried to change society, now I resent it, Society doesn't want to be changed unless its about health care reform or public transport efficiency.
    3. Why bother pissing into the wind? Why "help" those who don't want to be helped?
     
  8. nodz

    nodz Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Not true - society doesn't want to be changed unless it can be done for less cost and more profit or for greater price and more profit and then it's not society it's only those that are driving society that is changing.
     
  9. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jun 21, 2010
     
    After I have to suffer under the rule of your local fanclub (I would join them too, but it won't be that entertaining):
    1. I would never have even thought about critisizing you.
    2. Don't mix "society" with the people living in it, they aren't stupid or "brainless masses" - the problem is they don't organize and so remain in pessimism and apathy.
    Absolutely right, most people around here already support a health system without parasitic "beneficiaries" in the industry and health organisations, a turning away from the expensive equipment medicine or hospitals becoming death traps because of the pressure to save costs for the public health system by neglecting the necessary hygiene. "We", the financiers and beneficiaries could do it better, just because we have the reason to do so.
    3. It's not just help, it's education, discussion and the simple fact, that humble I need my fellow mankind, including those that don't want to be helped, for my very personal survival.

    Concerning the "human nature" I oppose determinism - mankind isn't infested with an animalistic drive for selfdestruction. We spend most of our evolution with mutual help and tolerance against outsiders - otherwise we would not have survived. I'm still a militant, so I don't believe absolute peace and pacifism and I will defend freedom to the last bullet if necessary. We can be killers, but we must not - if we use our brains which divides us from the animals.
    (and for the record: I accept animal liberation and don't regard the species homo sapiens as superior)
     
  10. KAAOS-82

    KAAOS-82 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    hahaha :thumbsup: I didn't think Leprosy was popular in Germany, there ya go
    I don't think people are stupid, I believe that a majority of people in the western world are content with what they have and can't be bothered striving for betterment. The developing world however I can see Anarchism having a much better chance to flourish, Africa for instance.
    I agree, I can give you an example: I worked in a vegetarian fast food place for a few years. pay and conditions were pretty sub-standard. A majority of the staff was made up of under 18's and overseas students. I was an exception to both of these (Over 18, Domestic Student). I floated the idea of having a union since the occupational health and safety standards were non existent in this place and we were being forced to deal with unrealistic requests from the bosses. At first I spoke to the general staff about it in passing and they were all really keen to get something done, I even organised a youth workers union (from a socialist party admittedly but a good one that does a lot of action) to come talk to some of the workers. I spoke to each of the team leaders on an individual basis, slowly to try and get the ball moving. the ones i spoke to were really up for it! Then one of the main shift leaders who had been there years before I was employed there was sacked under the presumption from the bosses that she'd stolen a significant amount of cash. everyone was shocked, this woman was fired without any investigation, purely because $400 odd dollars had been stolen whilst she was logged into the till, it could have been anyone, even a member of the public since it was an open shop front in the middle of the city of melbourne. I was so angry I pushed the thing into overdrive and sent every individual I talked to regarding the union (who agreed to it) an Email with the details of how to join and our first course of action would be to get this woman her job back. Some one snitched on me and I had the bosses lawyers calling me up threatening me with legal action, i told them it was my right to join a union if I so wished and Im in the grounds of law to use unlawful dismissal to persuade others to join. No one ended up having the balls to join even when one of the most revered people in that shop who was trusted to look after the whole business whilst the bosses were away on holiday and put in countless hours of overtime had been sacked. Its got nothing to do with anarchism, its just common sense really. none of these people were willing to stand up and say: I have a voice, let it be heard. This same approach is very reminiscent of the rest of humanity in my opinion.
     
  11. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jun 21, 2010
     
    Guess who was the first to download the leprosy/helpless split before it was even noon...
    Code:
    Its got nothing to do with anarchism, its just common sense really. none of these people were willing to stand up and say: I have a voice, let it be heard. This same approach is very reminiscent of the rest of humanity in my opinion.
    With my common sense I would say that they had the need - but not the balls to do it. Some time ago I had a shitty job in the med-industry, "us"-management ect. and I was so pissed that I joined the union and became member of the works council and the representative of younger staff/the job trainees. I was marx/leninist then and together with two adult comrades we did quite some revolution, achieved betterments for the shift workers, strict compliance of break times, work safety for people who had to deal with the unhealthy stuff - the bosses were pissed, but we got the support of the union.
    We achieved nothing more than "betterments" - and fucking nothing more, typical bolshevik stupidity.
    Then we got a new personal chief, "new management" type - trying to turn the trainees into well dressed buisness zombies by brainwashing them endlessly with the necessities of representation and image. So some of the youngsters were quite pissed and complained to their representative - humble me. We did the obvious, I critisized her vehemently at the yearly general assembly - and hell broke loose, declared hostility.
    Not on the surface, she did most of her tactics behind the scene, calling people in one by one and start working on them. First they complained even more, so we did the next step and I wrote an official complaint to the works council and the bosses too. She reacted by "working" the people who signed the complaint in endless hours until they gave in and stepped back from the complaint. The bosses covered her and we could not prove her dirty tricks to get the necessary support from the union.
    Guess who stood all alone and very vulnerable at the end of this battle? "Stupid" me.
    And this I learned then: More or less isolated Activism isn't that easy but may fail easily depending on the situation. It's like this "asymmetric warfare"thingie, the fucking opportunities aren't equal and the wiser the guerilla is, the more carefully he chooses the battlefield. As long as we have to fight them on their terms we are disadvantaged and we have to make up for the advance they have. What would have happened if I had used the time to discuss not just the complaint related stuff with the people who were represented by me, but inspired them on some political and personal aspects of working in the piss factory? They were already scared of the whole mess and felt the need to do something against it, but lacked the fucking horizont/perspective and maybe the attitude to stand in for themselves - and it took quite some time untill I became Anarchist myself and still curse that I wasn't that smart then. Showing them that they have the balls to do it would have prevented their individual retreat and at least a few of them would have been enough to get the thing rolling.
     
  12. butcher

    butcher Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Didn't Santa get you anything good Kaaos? Why so grumpy? wanna hug? :ecouteurs:
    see ya 2mrw nite mofo.
     
  13. Random Person From There

    Random Person From There Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Aug 27, 2010
     
    The "what's the point of peace when there's no one to experience it" is rather debatable, I admit it but it actually true. We cannot achieve total peace and we never will, but nuking the whole god damned Earth is no solution. If nuking the Earth is your point of achieving "peace" then who will experience this "peace" that you have achieved, what is the point of it? That's a clarification. I do not support Pacifism nor even accept Pacifism to achieve any sort of social change, it's been tried and it failed and more than that, it is stupid. Yes, that's my argument: "stupid" .

    Sacrifices have to be made, that is obvious. Replace my kid with the human race, do you try to find an alternative to helping the kid/human race or do you kill the kid/human race with a nuke or whatever?

    I oppose Pacifism, as previously said and so do I oppose extermination of the whole human race. The ending of world hunger is plausible in an Anarcho-Communist system if the world turns to that or reach communism through Marxist/Leninist ideology and the whole world follows it. Instead of wasting resources on Blackberries and iPhones, people can create things that suit the well-being of all instead the profit of some rich bourgeois.
     
  14. punkmar77

    punkmar77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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    I don't understand how you could give up on an idea because of one, or several failed attempts Kaaos, did you give up playing music after your first band? No right? So you were frustrated with those people and you completely gave up on the idea of organizing labor, instead of taking it as a lesson and trying it from a different angle, I bet you could have been amazing at it by now had you stuck with it.... :/
     
  15. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    completely agreed and a question here for the primitivists/terminators: how will you deal with the heritage/legacy of the dark capitalist age? nuclear power plants still active, mountains of ABC overkill weaponry degrading in the arsenals, chemical stuff in the industries repositories - nice future with noone left who actually know how to deal with this stuff.
    the hunger in the world is not a problem of production - the western notoriously produces more food than necessary, wasting it on feeding life stock or destroying it to keep the profits stable - it's a problem of control by the wrong people and distribution - and it's so easy to deal with this:
    from each according to their ability - to each according to their need
    - and I guess the bolsheviks already proved that they don't even think about realizing it - satisfied people become so damned unruly...
    but it's already too late to comment the veterans memories with some more recent things the local activism - including the flower of the local leprosy-fandom - achieved around here... and it wasn't that hard to do!
     
  16. KAAOS-82

    KAAOS-82 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Underwear and chocolate.... i think he was trying to seduce me.

    It wasn't exactly giving up, I changed my outlook on a few things and stopped being so idealistic, I also get easily frustrated with everything, unfortunately I can't help that. The failure of that action was one of a number of things that changed my perspective.
    I haven't quite given up on anarchism, more appropriately I view anarchism from a spectators point of view as opposed to an activist. Not that I'm lazy, I just don't hold high hopes of other people pulling there weight in order to get things done anymore. I did that for years when I was working with the Melbourne Anarchist Club, when it came to the crunch it was a select few actually doing things whilst everyone else was making decisions but not implementing them.

    awww <3
     
  17. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    to clarify, i siad WHEN people say this, I didn't say I hate people WHO say this. It's crushing thought. Please don't put words in my mouth (not that i have much room with my foot constantly in it... :D
     
  18. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    actually quite the opposite my banned compadre, I think people need to unite in the struggle, also against the foolish notion that human extinction is the only solution, if that divides people against those who think that then so be it, but to me it is two very different solutions to the same problem, one takes hard work and lots of time, while the other i see as a cop out, and if people are hoping for world annihilation, why even be part of the scene? Annihilation is not anarchism. This site should be for those who wish to try and help anarchism on it's way, not the end of mankind. If you can't see the distinction, then :ecouteurs:

    Ok and my new years revelation for this site, among other things, is to try and be less smarmy to others here.
     
  19. snookams

    snookams Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    why did this entrie thread just turn into a virtual brawl? this kind of debating is counterproductive in my opinion. we can split hairs all day, but the truth is we only have each other in this shit.
     
  20. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    agreed upon the hairsplitting and the fact that we have - first - each other in this shit. But we also have the "people" too - to achieve the final goal for all and we can't do it without them. Denouncing them as stupid, ignorant and whatever else will not help a thing and is more than a step too far from the realisation where our problems really come from - brainwashing and states propaganda in general, isolation, pessimism and frustration.
    Pesonaly I still ask myself how to relate the bitter complaint about the loss of freedom of speech with the answer "well, I play in a band" to the question "what are you going to do about it?" It's a bit polemic, I know, and somehow we seem to need the weirdness imminent to the whole thing, so everybody has a reason to throw in his/her individual 5 cent, make mistakes, gets critisized, gets angry, makes more mistakes - but at the end we almost manage somehow not to rip ourself to shreds - and after this, everybody is able to re-consider his/her personal position and maybe get a bit wiser from learning something. I don't like bitching and personally I try to evade it - but it's ok as long as we are able to get over with it and go on with the main point.
     
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