Civlization is the real enemy

[nike]

Degrowth (in French: décroissance, in Spanish: decrecimiento, in Italian: decrescita) is a political, economic, and social movement based on environmentalist, anti-consumerist and anti-capitalist ideas. Degrowth thinkers and activists advocate for the downscaling of production and consumption—the contraction of economies—as overconsumption lies at the root of long term environmental issues and social inequalities. Key to the concept of degrowth is that reducing consumption does not require individual martyring and a decrease in well-being. Rather, 'degrowthists' aim to maximize happiness and well-being through non-consumptive means—sharing work, consuming less, while devoting more time to art, music, family, culture and community.
At the individual level, degrowth is achieved by voluntary simplicity. Global solutions, for ‘degrowthists’, involve a relocalization of economic activities in order to end humanity's dependence on fossil fuels and reduce its ecological imprint. Degrowth opposes sustainable development because, while sustainable development aims to address environmental concerns, it does so with the goal of promoting economic growth which has failed to improve the lives of people and inevitably leads to environmental degradation. In this way, degrowth stands in sharp contrast to current forms of productivist capitalism that consider the accumulation of capital and commodities a desirable end
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degrowth

the roots of this "movement" go back to the romantics and anti-industrial thinkers of the 18th century, some of the theories - especially the way "back to social values" is promoted reminds strongly to right-wing ideals and most of the prominent promotors come from an at least conservative background, preaching kinda "reasonable capitalism". they don't question the control over the means of production, thus still refuse the people - especially those in the 3rd world - to decide for themselves.
in france and germany they promote nuclear powerplants for the "transistory stage" of the pull out from the fossil energy-economy...

[butcher]

The fact that primitivists/anticiv activists are writting that behind a computer screen, using internet and electricity is just the proof that most of you are confusing "primitivism" with "economical decreasing" (not sure of the word, in french it's called "décroissance" and it's a movement of people who want to progressively decrease the use of modern technology in our society, but not at the point of living in the forest with nothing like the primitivist THINK they want but would never be able to apply it on themselves). It's just a rebellious phase of your life, someday you will grow up and realise your ideas are too radical and you will be more realist. I've met thousands of anti-capitalist activists in my life but i have never met a single primitivist/anticiv who was able to really apply his ideas on himself.

I think that argument is disingenuous, its similar to the ones about how if you work, buy food at supermarkets, drink coffee, etc, you can't complain about capitalism. You can't 'opt out' of Capitalism, and by inference, out of 'civilisation' either.
Instead primmos are shit cos they switch blame from social relationships to technology, thus acting as an apologist for capitalism. 'We're not alienated and exploited because of value and work, but cos wheels are evil.'

[MIKEANDANGELA]

I really dod not read every post in this thread, but my opinion of civilization is just this........you cannot just opt out of civilization period, that would be suicide, but there are ways to make the system work for you on your own accord. There are ways to just live and be beyond the rador of the capital bullshit that my country has become or the globe abroad as well.. we try to live "underground" so to speak.....What I mean is , my wife and I have 4 children, so of course I have to work, but I manipulate the system of my employer every chance I get. I try to use the system to me advantage, sure would I love to live in a secluded place and take care of my own food and so on, I live with the cards I am dealt, but that does not mean I can't cheat every now and then.........there are many ways to live out of society's eye......keep it underground, I guess I could explain more ,but I will leave that for another post. Cheers

[citoyenne bo doi]

in my eyes this whole lifestyle navel gazing neurosis is nothing but a surrender to the capitalist system:
pull yourself out even before you could have started to struggle, find a nice and quiet corner with some nice lies to live in - and the most annoying part: the tendency of these eternal fugitives to loudmouth their petty theories at every avaliable opportunity. even more worse the spindoctors creating weirdo versions of history and science, or silently copy-pasting from the european romantic and pre-first world war era - full of proto-fascists and later nazi writers - sometimes it's more than appalling how much they sound like zerzan or feminist-anti-vegetarian-primo-anti-porn lierre keith busily jerking off into the media stream.
i spend some time helping to fund and build up a anarchist library and still suffer from the shock that came with the realisation how big the heap of dietary/primo/temporary somethings /dumbster/religious/pacifist literature was, written only by two handfulls of writers during the last 30 years and already challenging the heap of the long anarchist history's class war-seasoned, organising and fighting figures, much too busy doing something against the bosses, instead of creating kind of alternate reality to sell on amazon to those looking for easy explanations and excuses for their anxiety neurosis.
each one decides for her/himself, at least as long there aren't socio-psychological reasons responsible for developing kind of a borderline position - like the racist cave girl who started this thread for example - but each and every one of us should be aware that each decision has consequences - the more we pull out of the fight, the safer the mess weighting us down gets - and right, you can't escape, not as long as you remain on earth. the more we dissociate from the dire here and now and the people who are running the money machine each day as paid hostages creating the bosses profits, the more isolated and lost we will get, ranting about the evil and corruption of the stupid masses eating the wrong stuff and destroying earth...

[Crimecore]

Primitivism is reactionary. There is no example of a working primatavist society. Forcing everyone to be hunters and gatherers would eliminate the population thing beacause everyone would starve in your society. Thats why I am anti-primativist. Progress is Anarchist.

We might be progressing forward, but our bodies are becoming weaker. Most of us no longer know what it means to struggle to live. I mean, I've had to eat out of the trash and shit, but who hasn't. If you're hungry, you're hungry.
We are causing ourselves to become weakened against disease, and we are becoming less and less able to take care of ourselves if pitted against extreme physical obsticles. Not that I advocate an end times scenario, but perhaps one is to happen? Are we any longer physically equipped to protect ourselves in harsh enviroments? Have we still in our blood the ability to quickly adapt to a merciless enviroment in a timely and efficient manner?

I honestly do not know, but I do question my own ability to survive in an unforgiving wilderness which may have been just a day in day out routine for my ancestors. Sure, I can fix up my clothes, make a few correct guesses at what may be considered edible, and could perhaps make some pretty nifty makeshift shelters...but is that alone enough to survive?

[Crimecore]

I do feel the need to ask...as cliche as it is to mention, what of over population? I definately don't have any answers for it off of the top of my head, and I certainly don't support any idea or cause that would cost humans and animals their lives, but do any of you have any proposals for what to do about overconsumption of our planetary resources and how to better distribute them to the people that need them most? Surely, while I sit well fed by food stamps in the united states of america there is someone much like me who isn't so lucky. Someone who wishes they had a trash can to eat from like I was lucky enough to have in the past. What of the businesses that profit from our ill health...what of their facilities that put us into that state of health. Where will the line be drawn? When will the health of our friends and family, animals, and earth under our feet be taken over say a chemical plant that produces polymers that we so greatly need? How will we assess how many lives are gained, and how many are lost as a result of specific social, economic, governmental, and environmental factors, and how will we rate them so that we know what is necessary and what is not? If people are killed by mercenaries hired by the Coca Cola company, what has happened along the line to bring me this computer I'm using? I sure as hell know what happens in coal mines, and I sure as fuck know what happened to the natives of this land...

It's always been tribes vs. empires, where do we stand now? Which tools have they placed in our hands that make us strong? Which ones make us weak? How do you propose that we asses what industries, technologies, and actions promote life, and which ones exploit and destroy it? Many times, many things damn, and protect us at the same time, how are we supposed to differenciate. Do we simply make it our aim to save the most lives? I would like to hope so.

[citoyenne bo doi]

We might be progressing forward, but our bodies are becoming weaker. Most of us no longer know what it means to struggle to live. I mean, I've had to eat out of the trash and shit, but who hasn't. If you're hungry, you're hungry.
We are causing ourselves to become weakened against disease, and we are becoming less and less able to take care of ourselves if pitted against extreme physical obsticles. Not that I advocate an end times scenario, but perhaps one is to happen? Are we any longer physically equipped to protect ourselves in harsh enviroments? Have we still in our blood the ability to quickly adapt to a merciless enviroment in a timely and efficient manner?

what makes you think we are getting weaker? - except for the high risks of overconsumption, the biological treat breeding in the mass-animal-production (bird flu, pig pest, use of antibiotica to prevent plagues amongst the animals and to support their development, resulting in anti-biotica tolerances and immunity of former easy to treat infections) infection illnesses like HIV dragged out of it's secluded habitat by tourism -
according to humane sciences we were never more health and tough than ever before, we just produced some new endangerments - but they aren't unchangeable or forever invincible.
modern life in the developed countries alienates us - just see this whole lifestyle shit about things that were common sense only some 60 years before the age of discount supermarkets and hygienic packages of food stuffs. if you are american: make a trip to mexico and watch how people live less privileged and alienated from daily life and it's simple necessities.

proposals for what to do about overconsumption of our planetary resources and how to better distribute them to the people that need them most?

if we manage to set things right and abolish capitalism and the state using it as a tool we are free to decide how to minimize conflicting means of production working only for profits on the market.
we already have enough food and the means to distribute it, the problem isn't the amount of food, but the price one has to pay for it - quite easy to deal with after capitalism is gone. we can optimize agricultural production, minimize the area under cultivation, cultivate former wasteland regardless of rentability - i'm actually working on the kibbuz-mode, used to develop production in areas close to or intermixed with living areas by low-tech means and voluntary manpower alone.
right now we only exploit rentable ground and overstress it to the extremes, using artificial fertilizer and waste of drinking water - while polluting the ground with chemicals and - due to monoculture - herbi- and pestizides - not longer necessary if profit isn't a primat anymore.
health care is a far more complex problem - bound again by profit and lack of quality, but on the other hand depending on high tech equipment in the research of new or better cures. but the experts and the knowledge is avaliable, maybe the communication technology will allow something like a global brain collective working on old problems like malaria and parasite-infections, still a completely ignored humanity problem - the majority of people on earth is just not able to feed a capitalist market.
increased health protection and preventive measures like a healthier diet ect. will help us a lot with the consequences or privileged overconsumption - thats a great challenge for the social organs in future collectives and communes driven by the peoples self-interest - right now only a market strategy for profit.

dwelling in the possible known or unknown atrocities going on might become only agonizing - i think we should be aware of the shit happening around us, but better hurry up learning how to work for ourselves, organize and develop modes to deal with problems and increase activism towards a real change via the complete abolishion of repression and economical/political crime. treating symptoms of the system helps organising and gives the movement momentum - but we should never get lost in details forget the big picture asking for a healty coup de grace.

It's always been tribes vs. empires, where do we stand now? Which tools have they placed in our hands that make us strong? Which ones make us weak? How do you propose that we asses what industries, technologies, and actions promote life, and which ones exploit and destroy it? Many times, many things damn, and protect us at the same time, how are we supposed to differenciate. Do we simply make it our aim to save the most lives? I would like to hope so.

big theme, i think the systems are currently fortressing themselves, europe calls for domestic unity and gets more and more hostile against the eastern, near eastern, north african periphery, promoting a "europe of regions" while closing the outer borders air-tight...
problem for us here is the growing xenophobia and the rise of a new kind of fascism, populistically denying it's very own tradition but obviously similiar in it's aims, late in the war the nazis declared a "european" crusade against... too - the state system turns fascist again, no matter who's doing the parliamentary work.
getting in touch with the immigrants is first priority, they have the very same reason to be wary of whats going on and they provide a large part of the work force too - thats the second priority:
we have to revive the trade union work, organize in the industrial production and the service industry too, people working there fall out of the consumerist paradise more and more, but being "working class" was a long time ago - and most have no clue about it, but in history the unions were always the key to the change.
we are working for us, each one a individual part of the people, we the people are working for the people to get what we need and only we know what we really need. to secure that we just have to take out the minority claims to know better - class war as usual during all the time before today.

[Crimecore]

Precisely the kind of response I was looking for, thank you.

I do unfortunately work in the service industry, and though my job might not be physically strenuous most times, and a pay check is better than none, being that I have a daughter, it needs seroius reform. It's quite dehumanizing most times, and I feel by working, I am support the ill health and dehumanization of our customers as well. It's not a hard job, it's actually a joke and super easy, but it's gross, exploitative, and here in the bible belt, racist too. It seems just about everything needs reform, luckily the world isn't short of people who are very effecient at their chosen professions. I've been reading more and more about the uprising in barcelona. From what I understand, work was on a volunteer basis and the work day for most ranged from 4 to 6 hours...and they still saw productivity rise in some industries. People don't have to be forced to work, the great thing about people is that a lot of the time they'll find something they don't mind to do, just to pass the time.

[apples&onions]

Haven't read thread yet but very,very,very well expressed OP. I wouldn't have posted the End Civ vid but good shit!

[Wide-Eyed Sluggard]

depends on what "civilized" means to you. To me it means that I resort to force only as a last option, I treat others in a way I believe is fair and conducive to overall peace/dignity, and I make sure to think before I act whenever possible.

What "civilized" has become, though, is despicably snobbish and elitist, another separating partition for the rich to use to look down on the poor.

[THEBLACKNOVA]

Deep Green Resistance aka DGR

Does anyone have any links to critiques of this group by anarchists??

The rough sketch I have of this group is, it's a hierarchal organization that wants militants to do some work for them when they are called to do it.... all in the name of bringing down "civilization" and saving the planet...

Oh yeah and their book sells for $23 on their web site...

ps. i read this whole tread ha